Maximum stamina gained at level up?

[jayrshaw]

Hi everyone,

After restarting my game due to a bug, I am playing through Dungeon Master again. One thing that I've noticed during my past few playthroughs is that different characters seem to end up with very different maximum stamina values. I usually play with a party consisting of Halk, Hissssa (who I rename to Hissa), Sonja, and Stamm. I've noticed during my past few playthroughs that Hissa always seems to end up with a significantly lower maximum stamina value than my other three characters; conversely, Stamm's maximum stamina always seems to be a bit higher than everyone else's.

Does anyone know if there is a hidden value that governs how much maximum stamina points characters gain when they level up? I noted that Hissa's vitality is lower than the vitality of my other characters; however, I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence or if it has something to do with the rate at which his maximum stamina is increasing. Any insight into this aspect of the game's mechanics would be appreciated!


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

ReDMCSB source code shows that each time a champion gains a skill level, the Maximum Stamina value is increased by a random amount between X and 1.5X where X depends on the skill:
Fighter skills: X = MaximumStamina / 16
Ninja skills: X = MaximumStamina / 21
Priest skills: X = MaximumStamina / 25
Wizard skills: X = MaximumStamina / 32

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for providing this information, Christophe. So, based on the formulas, it sounds like a character's current maximum stamina plays a major role in how much additional maximum stamina he/she will receive when he/she gains a level. I guess since Hissa's stamina starts somewhat lower than the other champions I am using (and Stamm's somewhat higher) that this explains the phenomenon I have been seeing with Hissa's stamina being chronically lower than everyone else's (and Stamm's somewhat higher).

If it isn't too much trouble, could you also provide the formulas explaining the amount of maximum health and mana a character will receive when gaining a level? Thanks again for all of your help (and for your great web site on this game, too)!


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

Each time a champion gains a skill level, the Maximum Health value is increased by a random amount between X and 1.5X where X depends on the improved skill:
Fighter skills: X = new skill level * 3
Ninja skills: X = new skill level * 2
Priest skills: X = new skill level * 1.5
Wizard skills: X = new skill level

Each time a champion gains a Wizard or Priest skill level, the Maximum Mana value is increased by:
Priest skills: new skill level + Min(Random(4), Base Priest Skill Level - 1)
Wizard skills: (new skill level * 1.5) + Min(Random(4), Base Wizard Skill Level - 1)

[jayrshaw]

Thanks again, Christophe! Actually, I'm trying to think of how the mana formula would have resulted in my characters receiving 3 points of maximum mana when they reached Neophyte Priest level (this is the number of mana points they received, I believe, without exception). Based on the formula, it looks like they should received only 1 maximum mana point (1 point for reaching Priest Level 1 plus 0 points as a result of the Min function (i.e., [Base Priest Skill - 1] would equal zero, and the minimum of zero and the random number would always be zero). Maybe there is some overall minimum increase of 3 points coded in somehow?

Oh, and could you also post the formula for health - it looks like you accidentally posted the one for stamina twice instead of the formulas for both stamina and health. Sorry to keep bugging you about this!


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

Actually, the skill level numbers on http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/691 were wrong (I just fixed them).
When you are Neophyte, you are actually level 2 internally.
So you gain 2 + Min(Random(4), 1) which has 3/4 chances of resulting in a 3 mana points increase, and 1/4 chance of a 2 mana points increase.

Also, I fixed my previous post above with the formula for Health.

[jayrshaw]

Great information, Christophe - thanks again!!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

One thing that I find interesting about these formulas is that fighter levels are apparently better than ninja levels in almost every respect (unless you are particularly trying to raise your characters' dexterity). I guess in practice it's best to raise both fighter and ninja levels, though, so I'm not sure if this has any actual implications on how you would go about training your characters in the game.


--Jay

[Saumun]

Higher dexterity increases the odds of making a successful hit, and reduces the odds of your champion being hit in hand to hand combat.
If you spam ros potions to get very high dexterity, this advantage becomes quite noticeable.

[Saumun]

Forgot to mention. It also increases the effectiveness of shot projectiles, so if you're using arrows (or better still, slayers) with a decent bow, high dexterity is beneficial.

[jayrshaw]

Right - I do train the ninja levels for my characters, so I should be ok. Is it generally beneficial to use stat-boosting potions? I never really tried it because I thought it cost too much mana to keep the stat-boosting effects up perpetually. This is the second post I've read recently discussing it, though, so I'm beginning to wonder if I've been missing out (the other person who mentioned it said they used strength-increasing potions to increase their characters' carrying capacity).


--Jay

[Saumun]

I suppose it depends on the version you're playing. I noticed in another post you mentioned playing the SNES version, which I have never played in it's original form.
In DM and CSB I generally don't bother with potions, as the effects wear off too quickly to make it useful for more than a short time... but if you spam enough, you can really see the difference while it lasts.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah, I just looked at the spell costs in Christophe's Dungeon Master encyclopedia web site, and those stat-boosting potions look like they require quite a bit of mana at high levels. I guess you could prepare them in advance and use them right before an important fight or something...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I can only think of three "important fights" that are significantly more difficult than everything else on the level.

1. The end of the worm level when you kill the mummy at "This is my prisoner, let him suffer".
   IMHO the hardest fight in the game.
2. The Red Dragon.
   An anti-climax boss if you use the right strategies like magic boxes and those poison bombs you should have saved. Also a good time to use up those FUL bombs and Fury's fireballs as you can replace Fury with Flamemitt and you should have a better weapon as well.
3. Lord Chaos
   Where only anti-magic stats matter.
4. The Pain Rat Regeneration room
   I've only seen it absolutely full of rats once or twice, and you can usually isolate them, but taking them all on can be a challenge.

Beyond that, that one puzzle on level 6 where you have to shoot an arrow is the only time I tend to use KU potions, as Halk, Hisssa, Sonja, Stamm, and maybe Daroou tend to be the only champions that can do that puzzle without a strength potion.
I never find much use for the other potions.

[jayrshaw]

Fortunately, I just finished the fight with the eight magenta worms at the end of Floor 3 yesterday. I just chopped at them with axes until they went down, but I had to run away to heal my characters after killing the first two groups of worms before returning to kill the two remaining groups. I was going to try the magical box / poison cloud technique on the red dragon that you mentioned; I have never actually made it that deep into the dungeon before (the furthest I remember getting on prior playthroughs is the floor with the giant scorpions).


--Jay

[Phoenix]

Beyond that, that one puzzle on level 6 where you have to shoot an arrow is the only time I tend to use KU potions, as Halk, Hisssa, Sonja, Stamm, and maybe Daroou tend to be the only champions that can do that puzzle without a strength potion.

In my last playthrough, I was playing Gothmog alone. I was able to solve it without the need for any potions by simply throwing a single rock. You don't have to shoot an arrow, and you don't need potions. It's also possible to complete the game without using any blue/green boxes.

[jayrshaw]

I've been training my characters, and I'm still really surprised to see how much your characters' initial maximum stamina can influence their maximum stamina later in the game as they gain levels. At the point of the game I'm in, Hissa's maximum stamina is now more than 100 points lower than all of my other characters', and he keeps losing more ground as my characters gain more levels. I'm guessing that in addition to having a relatively low starting maximum stamina that Hissa also got some lousy rolls for maximum stamina increases early in the game, because the gap between Hissa and Sonja's starting maximum stamina (10 points) is the same as the gap between Sonja and Stamm's starting maximum stamina, but the gap between Sonja and Stamm's current maximum stamina is way less than the 100+ point gulf between Hissa and Sonja's maximum stamina. Then again, Sonja's stamina is almost even with Halk's (who starts off with 5 more maximum stamina points than Sonja does), so she might have just gotten really good rolls for maximum stamina gains early in the game (for my more recent levels, I have been monitoring my stat increases and resetting the game if they are too low).

That said, I haven't yet really found myself in any situations where my characters' stamina has fallen very far below their maximum, so I don't know whether or not this will have any practical impact on my characters' performance while facing various trials in the dungeon. Are any of you aware of any situations where a character would be at a a real disadvantage by having a low maximum stamina value?


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Oh, I should have said that Hissa's starting maximum stamina is 9 points lower than Sonja's starting maximum stamina and not 10; for some reason I was thinking that Hissa starts out with 60 stamina, and he actually starts with 61.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

The really funny thing about this is that I used to play a snake/lizard man in an online text-based RPG for years, and he ended up getting killed way more often than he should have because I didn't train his stamina enough when he gained levels (you got points you could allocate to various stats every time you gained a level).


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Hi all,

I'm just writing to report that gaming your characters' maximum stamina by reloading the game each time you gain a level until you get a good maximum stamina bonus can be very effective at improving your characters' maximum stamina levels once you reach higher levels due to the way the formula for stamina bonuses at level up works. I'm now at a point where I'm fairly certain that 3 out of 4 of my characters will have 999 maximum stamina by the time I've finished training them (I plan on training them to Level 3 Master in the Fighter/Ninja skills and either Level 5 or Level 6 Master in the Healer/Wizard skills). Hissa, my character with the lowest starting stamina value (and who I believe also got some lousy stamina rolls on his early levels), is still trailing all of my other characters in stamina by roughly 200 points (even more than that in Stamm's case).


--Jay

[Phoenix]

I'll have to disagree with this strategy for stamina, but not for stats. I push stats when I level, this mean if I go up a level in fighter, I won't save unless I get +2 STR, +1 DEX, +1 AF/VIT. For ninja, I need +1 STR, +2 DEX, +1AF/VIT. For priest I need +1 WIZ, +1 VIT, +1 AM, +1AF(every other level), and for wizard, I need +2 WIS, +1 AM, +1 VIT/AF. I also require full mana for that level up.

I've always found that when the game gives you full stats, you pay for it in HP and stamina. Health is typically 5-15 greater in non-full stat level increases. I consider it good whenever I can get full stats and 5-9 less than the projected health increase.

It's extremly rare that you get the stats and the HP unless your champions are below expert. The worst level up is when you get all the HP and/or the stamina, but no stats increases at all!

[terkio]

I made it simple. I only care about Health.
As in real life....

[jayrshaw]

I'll have to disagree with this strategy for stamina, but not for stats. I push stats when I level, this mean if I go up a level in fighter, I won't save unless I get +2 STR, +1 DEX, +1 AF/VIT. For ninja, I need +1 STR, +2 DEX, +1AF/VIT. For priest I need +1 WIZ, +1 VIT, +1 AM, +1AF(every other level), and for wizard, I need +2 WIS, +1 AM, +1 VIT/AF. I also require full mana for that level up.

I've always found that when the game gives you full stats, you pay for it in HP and stamina. Health is typically 5-15 greater in non-full stat level increases. I consider it good whenever I can get full stats and 5-9 less than the projected health increase.

It's extremly rare that you get the stats and the HP unless your champions are below expert. The worst level up is when you get all the HP and/or the stamina, but no stats increases at all!

I mainly go for a strategy similar to the one you described, as well. Basically, what I tried to do is get perfect rolls on the main stats you mentioned, within one point of a perfect roll for mana on Healer/Wizard levels, and average or above rolls (overall) on health and stamina. This does take a long time and, as you mentioned, the rolls often do seem to be worse at higher levels for some reason. Also, during my current playthrough, I was actually ignoring health, stamina, and mana completely for my first few levels before I started paying attention to them around Apprentice or Journeyman level. Luckily, as I gain higher Healer/Wizard levels, I seem to be to be getting right above the threshold that occurs every 40 maximum mana points for an extra mana recovery point increment each time I gain one Healer level and one Wizard level.

By the way, in the SNES version of the game, you can get up to 2 points of Antimagic for each Healer and Wizard level; I also read an old post by someone claiming that in some versions of the game you can actually get up to 3 points of Antimagic for these skills (this is definitely not true in the SNES version of the game, though).

I have also occasionally noticed the phenomenon you mention where you sometimes gain no stat increases at all and low health, stamina, and mana to boot; in the SNES version of the game, this only occurs for Healer levels (you will always get a minimum of 1 Strength point for Fighter levels, 1 Dexterity point for Ninja levels, and 1 Wisdom point for Wizard levels).


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Oh, I probably should have mentioned that I have been accepting average health/stamina increases for Healer/Wizard levels but only solidly above average health/stamina increases for Fighter/Ninja levels. Even pursuing this strategy, I still find that it typically takes a lot longer to get a good Healer/Wizard level than it does to get a good Fighter/Ninja level since you are trying to get a good mana roll in addition to perfect stat increases...


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Basically, what I tried to do is get perfect rolls on the main stats you mentioned, within one point of a perfect roll for mana on Healer/Wizard levels, and average or above rolls (overall) on health and stamina. This does take a long time and, as you mentioned, the rolls often do seem to be worse at higher levels for some reason...
... Even pursuing this strategy, I still find that it typically takes a lot longer to get a good Healer/Wizard level than it does to get a good Fighter/Ninja level since you are trying to get a good mana roll in addition to perfect stat increases.

Heh, despite what I said in the quote above, I just had an extremely easy time getting good Pal Master (i.e., Level 5 Master) Healer levels for my entire party. Not sure what's going on here, since it took a really long time for me to get good Ee Master (i.e., Level 4 Master) Healer levels for my party. Not that I'm complaining if things are getting easier....


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Hi all,

This is going to sound kind of bizarre, but I've been noticing that my characters' actions seem to consume more stamina points as they reach higher levels and higher maximum stamina values. I specifically noticed that my characters' stamina was draining faster when my characters were working on their Um Master (i.e., Level 2 Master) Ninja levels by using the Stab technique than they were when they were working on their Lo Master (i.e., Level 1 Master) levels using the same technique. I also recall that my characters' stamina never seemed to get very drained before I started training my characters in earnest (i.e., when their maximum stamina values were generally under 250 points), even when using the same Stab technique that is now easily draining my characters' stamina by hundreds of points if I use it for an extended period of time.

Have any of you observed this phenomenon before? Can anyone explain why actions like Stab seem to reduce my characters' stamina more quickly at higher levels than they did at lower levels? Any explanation would be appreciated!


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I haven't noticed this at all, although I did notice that swinging Stamm's axe uses more stamina than swinging the falchon you get as the "great reward" from clicking on the small detail right at the start.
It might be the same that you use more stamina stabbing with Diamond Edge than stabbing with a dagger. I know you get fighter levels instead of ninja levels doing so.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah, I was thinking that it might just be because my training sessions have been longer at higher levels. The thing is that I've noticed the same thing happening when I'm just killing screamers to restock my supply of screamer slices (something that shouldn't be taking significantly longer at higher levels than it did when I first started training). I guess it just kind of freaks me out a bit to see my characters down 400 stamina points or more when they didn't really have any problem with low stamina when their maximums were in the 200s...


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Also, I was really surprised to see how crazily effective high level stamina potions are at restoring your characters' stamina. I was training Sonja's Ninja skills and noticed that her stamina had dropped to around half its maximum level of ~900. I had her drink a single Mon level (i.e., Level 6) stamina potion, and it brought her all the way back up to her maximum!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

This is going to sound kind of bizarre, but I've been noticing that my characters' actions seem to consume more stamina points as they reach higher levels and higher maximum stamina values. I specifically noticed that my characters' stamina was draining faster when my characters were working on their Um Master (i.e., Level 2 Master) Ninja levels by using the Stab technique than they were when they were working on their Lo Master (i.e., Level 1 Master) levels using the same technique.

Well, I just confirmed that whatever phenomenon I thought I was witnessing does not appear to be a result of my character's maximum stamina values. I just had Hissa and Stamm each stab the air for 8 minutes and discovered that their respective stamina values both degraded by slightly more than 140 points by the end of the experiment, despite the fact that Stamm's maximum stamina is more than 200 points higher than Hissa's...


--Jay