Bored on L6

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:09 am

I'm trying this game (DM original) and am bored and stuck on L6. There is apparently a room wth a key I need to proceed. The room is full of columns. I need to either stand on, or freeze a skel on a pressure plate. So far, OK, but the room is filled with annoying skels and hovering eyes. The skels aren't too dangerous but the eyes are. Even with a flame shield, I keep getting killed. So I kill a few skels, a few eyes and then I need to tediously create healing potions, heal, then sleep then do it again only to find that I'm not reducing the number of any of the monsters. I guess they regen. Well, my team can't survive to kill them all and they seem to regen while i'm away.

I want ONLY OFF OF THIS stinking boring room. Any ideas how to get the *#&# key and move away from here? I note some guy did the whole game in 34 in. I've been on this room for an hour with nothing to show other than some higher levels. I'm annoyed an bored.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:46 am

you don't need to do that column, that doens't earn you a key

the start of this level replies on iron keys. so you can earn a few before that room in the earlier puzzles rooms and move passed it down the other corridor. if you don't get the ones in this room now you simply miss a few bonus bits later. At worst come back with a stronger party
The key to regeneration is the start of the room - the triggers are there So don't leave the room, try to find safe areas around it to move around in.

hope you have more fun with the rest of the level!

Post by **Lunever** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:48 am

Just have a look at the encyclopaedia maps (you'll find it above in the quick links menu), that will probably enable you to understand how that room works.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:48 pm

Thanks for both reples. I can't seem to work the combination room to get that key which, I supposed, is in that room wtih the eyes. I already messed up the combinations by pressing a buinch of buttons on my own. Is it possible to reset the combination room or if not, then which buttons do I push? I think I understand the map that I only need push two buttons if the room is as found, but now that I've spent a half hour pushing buttons randomly, I am unsure how to get that key. Can the room be reset?
I'm playing on my own so far. I have not consulted the map / hint aside from the combo room and then I only learned that I may have screwed myself so I can't get the key after all. Thanks.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:07 pm

There are only four buttons. Right? There are only
16 ways they can be on/off. When I went through
there I simply tried all 16 ways. For some reason it
always took 14 or 15 tries.....must be unlucky.

There was a puzzle in Crusaders of the Dark Savant
that seemed to adapt to the player and choose the
hardest combination. But again....I was probably
unlucky there, too.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:12 pm

Yeah, it's weird. I figured I'd pushed every combo several times w/o results. I guess I'll just try again. I was concerned that somehow I'd set the buttons so that the puzzle was deactivated. Thx. I'l guess I'll just push away. Funny that the game gives no hints to the right buttons.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:15 pm

The buttons toggle 'on' and 'off', two buttons need to be on and two need to be off
you can't reset the puzzle, but that also means once its solved it won't re-seal afterwards, so just keep pressing!

Post by **Lunever** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:36 pm

Simply think of the buttons as being binary digits, so you'll have a virtual "0000" (ranging to "1111" = F or 15) to start with, then set the lowermost button, so you'll get 0001, then reset the lowemost button and set the second lowest button instead, resulting in 0010, proceed to 0011, 0100, 0101, 0110, 0111, 1000, 1001, 1010, 1011, 1100, 1101, 1110, 1111. If you have gone through that you HAVE to have set the right combination at least once (which is enough as Beo pointed out already).

If you'll have other questions when you're through this, please give exact coordinates from the encyclopaedia maps, that makes giving the right answer much easier.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:42 pm

It is easier and quicker to think of the buttons as
a grey-code counter rather than a binary counter.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:00 pm

lol, i was thinking that, but didn't want to confuse the issue more than i usually do : )

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:25 pm

Thanks Paul. That hint got it. I'm now moving on my way.

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:13 pm

It is easier to go round the room clockwise, as you enter ,and press the first two buttons you find

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:28 pm

I'll remember that if I ever pass that way again. Now I'm a bit further on past the tomb of the firestaff and into a room which is posing enough problems that I almost wish I were still stuck with those skels and floating eyes. Here I seem to have all that plus a lot more. Maybe it's my poor playing style, but it seems to me that the monsters could use a nerf or my chars a pump here.
BTW, I'm playing DM for Windows not the old Atari or PC / DOS version. Is the balance the same? This is one tough game.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:51 pm

You mean you are playing DM through CSB For Windows?

If so, do you reincarnate?
If you do reincarnate. did you tick the 'DM rules' option first?

In CSB reincarnating halved your stats. CSB For windows has a 'DM rules' in the misc pull-down menu so this doesn't happen...

Otherwise, you shouldn't be having a severe level problem...

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:35 pm

No. This is DM for Windows. When I start up, I get a choice of the orginal DM, CSB or DM after CSB. I chose the option of saving the chars' stats when they left the mirror. This apparently is a native Windows game, but it looks just like DOS graphics. It's freeware written by someone in the UK to, as he put it, to get out of doing some real work during his final semester - or something like that. I'm at L7 or 8 where there is a big room full of green monsters, mummies, skels and little theives. This one is really tough. Not so much surviving, but I can't seem to figure out what to do here other than run around until I'm out of food, then reload, & wander aimlessly again. I'm fascinated that Paul did this in about a half hour.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:59 pm

The official name of this game is 'Return to Chaos'. Sorry I forgot to specify on my last post.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:26 pm

Ah, sorry..and lol, check the forum set one down from this ones...we know and love and have playtested RTC and the creator comes aorund form time to time : )

While its a clone, its fairly faithful, so you shouldn't be finding yourself any the worse for wear than the original version...so don't know why you haven't build up some healthy levels after the worms etc! the thign that will hit you harder is that now monsters aren't in groups...or in other words one group of skeletons or mummies can becaome a potential ambush of two or three surrounding you

I find the thing to do is stay at the stairs first...without even entering the level...and just hack at the ghosts, they tend to congregate towards you...after a while of hacking away, when you feel its clear, then walk into the level.
Watch out for the fireballs, and just scount around the wall..there's many secret areas, and the thing about them is you can load up on weapons, armour, and find some nice area to eat and sleep
You will eventually find a door...you need a key that is in the level, and not in any secret area
RTC has one tiny flaw, in that (hint)it's harder to see gray on gray than DM unless it's in the distance (/hint)

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:54 pm

I also noted another diff. A hint sheet I got on spells says that a low level anti - poson spell will work on any poison. That doesn't seem to be true either. I need a second level anti - poison spell to be effective. It's not a biggie. I sure do admire the guy who wrote this. It works awfully well even if it's a bit tougher. And yeah, that gray on gray is tough.

I'm not a terrfic gamer but I'm not an utter newbie either. I wonder if this is as tough or tougher than DM for Atari. Oh, and as to the monsters surrounding me, that's my major problem. Here in the open area, the mummies aren't tough, but sure are when you get three surrounding. I'll try holding them off at the stairs & see if their numbers decrease.

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:17 am

RTC is an amazing piece of work, though it does have its little quirks. The monsters, for example, can join other groups but unfortunately lose their ability to form blocks of 2, 3 or 4 and stay that way. This in my opinion does cause problems. The author has also altered the damage calculation of weapons which is very different from the original, and monsters reactions are certainly faster. I found RTC a lot harder to finish than DMPC.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:47 am

Gosh it is good to hear that. I was getting very worried at my inability to dodge the monsters. Up until your post, I believed I was losig my reactions or that I was slowing down. For example, in a large room with one worm, I should be able to keep on it's tail. Not only can I not do this, but the worm turns unexpectedly approaching from a new side. IMO, the AI is superior therefore, but also therefore, the monsters either need a nerf or the chars a boost. I think my game would have been better had I just done a twosome instead of a four. My chief wiz is already Expert at L7, but I could use even more. Well, I can't say I'm bored. BTW, I am playing DM now because I always wanted to try CSB. I tried that and was unable to move from the first room with the default chars so I figured to replay DM (which I played on the ST in, what, 87?) to get a good team. I thought I was going to walk thru, but I sure got a surprise. Not only am I not walking thru, but I've forgotten most of the puzzles / mazes.

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:03 am

You could always try downloading Paul Steven's CSBWin which has both CSB and Dm or even the original DMPC game. I do like RTC, but would not recommend it to somebody who is not fluent with DM.

The monsters are a problem. I used to get flamed by Black Flames by as much as even thinking about them! Or were they too easy (or predictable) in the original? I believe the author has added his own slant to the mechanics to try and iron out any easy loops. But with the advent of Rain's editors, it is possible to tweak the original DM mechanics for yourself. I am currrently working on a new dungeon, with custom graphics and mechanics, but it will be many months yet.

In timed games though, it takes me 75% longer to finish RTC than DMPC on CSBWin, but this may be to do with the timing mechanisms. And I died alot more too. As has been said many a time before, it is down to preference to which format you play.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:05 am

I'm quite satisfied that it's not me, but the game which is more difficult. I was concerned that I had lost something along the way. I mean it's been almost 20 years since I played on the ST. Further, my problem lies with my kbd. It's a wireless Microsoft product that clearly has some lag in it. So my hitting of keys has a bit of dwell where the Atari kbd was utterly crisp in response.
My first try was to use DM for PC, but that didn't run on my XP box w/Athlon XP. I actually bought a game on 3.5" discs, but that won't even launch. I also located VMSound or some such in hopes that it'd run but I had no hopes for the sound. It just crashes when launched in any mode.
My next try was CSB for Win, but I can't see the display. There seems to be some incmpat between my display adapter / monitor and this game. It's way to dark. I can't even see any text in the begining screen. I was about to give up when I stumbled upon RTC when searching for a clue to make CSB for Win work.
I once fancied myself an all right player on DM even giving hints on the old CIS board, but that was 17 years ago. I'll stick with this a bit more and if I keep getting slaughtered then try your alternative ideas. I mean it's not as if nobody has ever finished this game. If it can be done, I suppose I can do it too.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:44 am

that's the spirit : )
One thing i forgot about AI - in old DM, you could of course hit creatures the second they advanced and move away safely. In RTC monsters will do the same back to you now, able to react to you the second you move into their range

Also, the lag might not just be your keyboard...the graphical overhead on RTC does mean that it isn't reacting as crisplly as old games did, where you could tape out without thought your path five or six moves ahead and watch it whizz along

Sorry you can't get CSB working - post the bug on the forum below, as Paul is always seekign to make the engine as playable for as many people as possible.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:42 am

My next try was CSB for Win, but I can't see the display. There seems to be some incmpat between my display adapter / monitor and this game. It's way to dark

Now that is strange. CSBwin is about the simplest Windows
program there is. It uses the most direct Windows calls
to put pixels on the screen.

Tell me what you see.....If you put the game in size 1
mode there are several parts to the display.

1) The border. Menus and such.
2) The characters and their positions at the top.
3) The viewport where you see the dungeon itself.
4) The controls (left right, magic).
5) The game's text area at the bottom.
6) The statistics area. Black on white. Time and skills, etc.

Which ones of these appear too dark to see?
How many colors does your display show? 256? 16000?
24,000,000? 4294967296? (ie 8-bit, 16-bit, 24-bit, 32-bit)?
What gamea re you trying to play? DM? CSB? Other?
Do you have any way of capturing the screen in a
bitmap file so that I can examine the individual pixels?

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:51 am

from slide
I always wanted to try CSB.
I tried that and was unable to move from the first room with the default chars so I figured to replay DM(...) to get a good team.

slide: when you try csb(someday) and if you want to play csb with a boosted dm-party of the dmgame, try to equip some stat-increasing items, like moonstone/staffs ect. or jewel symal/ ect. before you make your dmsavegame a new adventure. The stats stay increased, but the items are gone -
]if using dmsaves in csbforwindowslinux is possible at all, I do not know for sure but it should work or shouldn´t it? What about RTC? In the Amiga version this worked, to make a new adventure..[

otherwise I would suggest to take a reincarnated csb prison party , which you train in the prison until you run out of food. then save and make a new adventure. (food is in the main game set to normal again).
Then you should cope with the worms more easily than with an "I know nothinnnng" reincarnated party, which is better in the end than a resurrected party, you know.
Ah, and try to find a way to check out the csb-movies.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:24 pm

Well, I went back to see what my history was and I gave you and others the wrong information. I initially used the PC for DOS DM which failed to load. I then went online to see if there was a patch to make the game that I purchased run where I found CSB. I actually had a standing order with a used computer shop here to buy an ST 1040 if one came in and then I'd buy CSB on eBay to finally play this game.
When checking for the patch, I noted CSB for Win. I tried that and it did run fine on my machine, but I was hoplessly overwhelmed by the chars. I noted that the chars in CSB offered or that I could create w/o traiining (I didn't think of training in the prison) were much less than my DM team at the end of that game. I believe I had at least master in all but ninja.
Then I found DM for Java which uses the Java VM to run something. It was that program that failed to work properly due to light levels. I apologize for leading you astray here. I can only blame being light headed due to residual poisoning stemming from a purple worm bite.
I'm fairly well done with the rat level having gotten the second RA key so I'm not entirely lost here in the game. I mean I did play DM and played it well 17 years ago. Now I never did do anything like a 30 minute run through and don't see how it can be done. I'd like to see those movies of it, but am unsure what the format it. The files I've found are RAR extensons which are, I thought, proprietary files only usable by a commercial program.
Are the moives themselves proprietary if I have them expanded? That is, what freeware or public domain programs do Ineed to use these files?
Thanks again. -Paul Cassel, Albuquerque, NM

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:46 pm

All the 'movies' come complete with the program
to run them. This is necessary because each movie
requires that it be played with EXACTLY (that is to
say VERY EXACTLY) the same version of CSBwin that
was used to create the movie. Any change whatsoever
results in a butterfly effect, famous in song and story.

WinRAR is available for free download. Simply type
its name in a Google search.

The worms are very simple, even with one very weak
character. Go get the torch, avoid the pressure pad in
front of the door that causes more worms, and either
kick the three worms to death or escape down the corridor.

Post by **Lunever** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:10 pm

Well, I just love RTC because of the faster monsters, in original PC-DM monsters are just too slow to be a challenge for an experienced player.

Zoooom: The trick of stats remaining boosted while items get removed when importing characters only works in the original version, RTC does not have that lovely bug; if it had you could boost characters indefinietly since you are allowed to reimport a party again as often as you wish to.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:10 pm

I'm going to keep at it although I'm sure my wireless keyboard has some lag built into it making the monsters proportionally even faster than normal. Or myabe I'm slower. I figure at worst I'll regain my DM skills and even if stopped in RTC, I will be tuned up to play CSB for Win in a few weeks.
I am much gratified to learn from this group that it is the game that's faster and tougher and not me that's slower and easier! -Paul

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:10 pm

learn from this group that it is the game that's faster and tougher

CSBwin allows you to set the speed of the game over
a relatively wide range. In fact, it can be set to what
might be called 'turn-based'.