Some bugs in CSB maps

[quest]

Maps of CSB (and DM) at this site are the best maps of CSB (and DM) I have ever seen
(the only chance how to surpas them would be probably all maps in a single
.pdf file with a lot of active index works...).
But I have found several small misprints:
CSB L02 (10,14) - there is an invisible pit
CSB L03 the pit (08,14) should be moved to (10,14) :-)
CSB "corbum pillar" - probably too many pits??? (I' not quite sure.)
That is all.

Many thanks for maps and the site - it is *great* work.

quest

P.S.:
One question:
Why The Designer of the CSB maze decided to use the teleporter at CSB L02 (15,14)
any idea?

[PicturesInTheDark]

Well I'm confused. Could not find pits where you described them - are you following the maps numbers (00 to 09) or the classical and DMute numbering 1 to 10? Are the coordinates given the same as in DMute?

Regards

PitD

[quest]

I used the map numbers and cocrdinates from dmweb.free.fr, but alas
I used the matrix coordinates (a lot of time spent deep in multilinear algebra...) ,
so I was thinking in rows x columns :( , the missing pit is CSB L02 (14,10) and
the pit CSB L03 the pit (14,08) should be moved to (14,10).

many thanks for correction of my correction :)

quest

[Sphenx]

That is right, the (03,14,08) pit is misplaced and should be in (03,14,10).

[ChristopheF]

I fixed the level 3 map.
For level 2, the note "A" explains that a pit will open if you try to open the door with lock picks.

[quest]

That is great, I have
a)another bug - (09,30,37) the teleporter leads to L24 (I wish it would...).
b) a silly idea - would be possible to add positions of ghouls heads (GH) - sometimes they are hidden behind the wall and you have to use "Oh Ew Ra" spell to see them.
One example is the (2,13,10) keyhole, another one is behind the keyhole at (3,20,31).
This is really nasty and dangerous place - if you stay here a gigler will appear and any atempt to follow it ends in a trap (in fact you enter here between two ghoul's heads facing each other - the second GH is visible at (03,20,26) (all for ST version).

[beowuuf]

Ture, ghoul/demon heads are used to signify danger in CSB - i have a list of decorations for RTC that would include them (based on Atari CSB) but only the visible ones - not the ones hidden...though could just be rando graphics....

[ChristopheF]

The teleporter error was fixed.
Many thanks for debugging the maps with so much care!

[quest]

Today I have two bugs in the CSB maps and one wish.
bugs:
1) CSB L01 08,18 ot the east wall shoud be a button switching off the fireball-launcher
at (01,09,18).
2) CSB L02 graphic for the "zoom path" is missing (the graphic used in DM L09 in the
" Zooooom" section is clear and beautifull).
wish:
Would it be possible to add to pages for CSB L04 and CSB L07 second map for
the ST version of CSB. It would be usefull as many of us use CSB for win+lin and
this is in fact the ST-version.

quest

[ChristopheF]

The two bugs are fixed. For the wish, it will take more time...

[ChristopheF]

quest, the answer to your P.S. question in the first post of this thread:
the teleporter is used when you jump in the pit at (01,14,15). You get on the teleporter which moves you above a second pit dropping you at (03,12,15).

[Sphenx]

Another question: before the second part of the Ros way, there are four switches that disable the teleporter. Question : do you think it was originally intended to be like that or is there a missing puzzle? mmh?

[beowuuf]

lol, maybe they wanted an 'abcd' sequence puzzle like Paul Stevens challenged in the DM section, and gave up bug-fixing : )
bloody actuators!

[Paul Stevens]

This will be solved when my "Designer Specified Actuators" (DSA)
are released in a few weeks. You will be able to construct
the abcd-sequence with four rather simple, identical actuators. Of
course you must first design that "simple" actuator. It is based
on a state-machine with three inputs, can send signals between
levels (no more teleporting rocks to acutate a pit upstairs), is
capable of arbitrarily long delays, and can send different signals
to two arbitrary targets. And you can have about 40,000 of them.

No fair using them in the challenge contest!

PAul

P.S. That's all the hint you get until it is released. It changes
every day but I think I am close to happy. The biggest problem
is creating the actuator editor. Visual C++ gave up on me when
I put 256 controls in a single Dialog Box. So it means a bit more
work on my part.

[beowuuf]

That's cool to hear, though why only a three input state machine?

Currently you can use the 'evil' of cloning to send signals between levels since actuators keep their states on changes...all you need is a second confirmation actuator per level that you trigger on stairs, etc
But something that does that without messing around - fantastic!

[Paul Stevens]

"Cloning"? Oh, dear. That is extremely clever. But
"evil" comes up short as an adjective. My editor will
do very bad things when you try to delete such things.
Perhaps I better check for them.
-----------------------------
Because there are three messages that can be sent
by pressure pads and such. My plan was to provide
a way to group them into m-state/n-input machines.

Perhaps you are thinking of something clever. I am
listening.

While going to sleep last night it occurred to me that
we could use the "position" field in the messages to
provide 12 inputs. We could no longer put independent
DSAs in a single cell because their positions within the
cell is not important anymore. But that seems a small
price to pay. And perhaps 12 is enough that I would
no longer have to provide a means of grouping them
into larger n-input machines. Although many cases, such
as the sequence challenge, could still be extended to
n-inputs by a clever designer....without cloning ;-).

They are 16-state machines and I will devise a method
of grouping them into m-state machines. Then, for
example, you could use three such actuators to define
a 48-state/12-input machine. That should suffice.

What do you think?

[Paul Stevens]

"Cloning"? Oh, dear. That is extremely clever. But
"evil" comes up short as an adjective. My editor will
do very bad things when you try to delete such things.
Perhaps I better check for them.
-----------------------------
Because there are three messages that can be sent
by pressure pads and such. My plan was to provide
a way to group them into m-state/n-input machines.

Perhaps you are thinking of something clever. I am
listening.

While going to sleep last night it occurred to me that
we could use the "position" field in the messages to
provide 12 inputs. We could no longer put independent
DSAs in a single cell because their positions within the
cell is not important anymore. But that seems a small
price to pay. And perhaps 12 is enough that I would
no longer have to provide a means of grouping them
into larger n-input machines. Although many cases, such
as the sequence challenge, could still be extended to
n-inputs by a clever designer....without cloning ;-).

They are 16-state machines and I will devise a method
of grouping them into m-state machines. Then, for
example, you could use three such actuators to define
a 48-state/12-input machine. That should suffice.

What do you think?

[quest]

This is clear to me, but why such complication - the maze contains pits through several
floors - maybe a bug in design?

By the way I would like to suggest to use some extra mark for the pit at (*,21,28)
(red colour?) because this is the only pit leading from the very bottom to the very top.
I believe it played some role in design of the maze and its existence is invaluable
if you try (in the game and without the infamous Magic Map) to create any kind of map.

[quest]

I tried to follow some routes in CSB maps and I have found some problems
(not bugs). I believe that corrections of these problems would improve
(already excellent) CSB maps.
02 07 12:
the pit 02 09 13 leads to the teleport 03 09 13 that leads to the 1x1 room 02 07 12 so
there must be a teleport somewhere

02 08 28:
similar problem the teleport 03 06 11 leads to 02 08 28 with no escape

00 41 27, 00 35 43:
destinations of the both teleporters are omitted ("switch riddle")

09 28 37:
the destination 09 11 08 is incorrect

08 10 13, 0021 14, 08 31 38:
destinations are omitted (and the first one is important)

06 29 20:
there is a spinner (at least in ST version)

"Supplies for the quick" room:
there are hidden pits that aren't on the map

And just a qustion - teleports in the big room 070926-070930 have "fixed" or
"random" destinations?


quest

[ChristopheF]

Hello,

Thanks again for the help you provide. Here are the answers to your remarks:

02 17 12:
You're right, there is a teleporter at that location, I'va added it to the map. Note that the teleporter at 03 09 13 only teleports items, not the party.

02 08 28:
Although the teleporter at 03 06 11 works for both items and party, it is located in a place where you cannot go while playing. In fact, it is part of a trick used by the designers to work around a limitation of the actuators in the game: they can only affect objects on the same level. The trick is to toggle a teleporter that will move the rock from 03 06 10 to the upper level at 02 08 28, where a pressure pad will toggle the pit at 02 16 20. There is no other more direct way of achieving this effect.
But there is no teleporter at 02 08 28.

00 41 27, 00 35 43 and 08 10 13, 00 21 14, 08 31 38:
destinations added

09 28 37:
the destination has been fixed

06 29 20:
I don't see any spiner in DMute in both the Atari and Amiga versions. There is a teleporter for creatures only and a floor pad with grate graphics to simulate water elementals going through the hole, that's all I can see.

"Supplies for the quick" room:
I did not put the hidden holes for clarity of the map. Maybe I should add a note to the page, but I have not enough space to put them on the map.

The teleports in the big room 070926-070930 have "fixed" destinations because it is not possible to have random destination.
The only random thing in the game seems to be the movement of creatures, which is why the designers used this trick with gigglers to dispatch items randomly throughout the dungeon.

[quest]

Hello,

thanks for your detailed explanation - I have found it interesting and useful.
Today I have two problems, but because I was unable to check them on my
Atari ST maybe I'm wrong:

1) is the destination of the teleporter 00 35 43 correct? (my guess 00 41 27)
2) 06 29 20 there is something that turned back any "flying object" (an axe, a dagger...),
I used it to train my ninja skill.

quest

[ChristopheF]

1) The teleporter at (00, 35, 43) does teleport creatures to (00, 34, 42).
The teleporter at (00, 41, 27) teleports party and items to (00, 35, 43).

2) There is a grate on floor with a pressure pad activated by creatures. The pad triggers a teleporter on the same tile that sends the creatures to level 9 to simulate Water Elementals falling into the grate.
Thrown items do not turn back here.

[Lunever]

I found another one: The switch to turn off the Corridor of Fire at CSB Lvl z01/x08/y18 east is missing in the maps.

Also I'd like to see the hidden connection between the Gem Room of Ros and the starting worm room, preferably in a special colour in these maps (since it is not in all versions) or in an additional map on the same site or linked to from the main map.

[ChristopheF]

???
The switch is indeed where you say it should be on the map at (01,08,18). Are you talking about another switch?

For the Gem room, I'll what I can do.

[Lunever]

Ah, sorry, I've been using an older print of the maps, where it has been still missing. In the current map site it is actually there. My mistake.

[Lunever]

One or two more things:

1) There are some generators at the FulYa-level which do have triggering floorpads that are not shown in the maps.

2) Although I've downloaded the the CSB hintbook a long time ago, Ameena made me recently have a second look upon it, and I noticed, that it has, albeit being generally inferior to the Encyclopaedia maps, two advantages compared to the Encyclopaedia maps: Possible destinations of "random" treasure are marked, and pits ABOVE are also marked faintly.

Is it possible to add these features to the Encyclopaedia maps too?

[ChristopheF]

I have never really completed all the CSB maps on the site. That explains the missing things. I will do it someday...

The next site update will definitely include a full description of the random treasure.

For the pits above, I just don't see any use for this information...

[Lunever]

Oh, but having some grey square outline or any other subtle symbol for pits from above IS useful, for there is a lot of vertical movement in CSB, and with those additional optical information you can see more easily and quickly where a pit from above will get you in the level beneath (of course you can do this with ccordinates only too, but seeing those spots directly would make the maps even more easy to use). For example the area leading to the Ros Corbum will be much more clear at the first glance with this addition to the maps, and a number of other spots also, it would be also easier to discover quick shortcuts and pathes of return when you need them.

Completing them maps would be great indeed, because they are already the best maps for DM/CSB I've ever seen and they are but 1% from being perfect, and I'd like to see that 1% gap filled very much, for then every other CSB map I've ever made, seen or downloaded will become unnecessary.