Project Natal : as i'm totally against joypads..

[linflas]

here's a solution : http://www.viddler.com/explore/Joystiq/ ... 18/204.721

[Gambit37]

Pretty cool. I had a quick google about this and did some reading. That demo video is too slick for the current state of the art, but it seems as if within a few years this could be real. I'm surprised, I thought you needed way more tech to monitor and process 3D movement but I guess I've been out of the loop!

[linflas]

i supposed you've seen Peter Molyneux's demonstration : pretty amazing way of painting

[Gambit37]

Not yet, I didn't have time earlier, but will check it out.

[cowsmanaut]

oh dear lord.. you guya have accepted this as real? in their initial tests this system is racist.. doesn't see dark skinned people.. which to me is epic fail I mean if you have a system that can sorta track people's hands.. but then discover that it only works if they are white.. then you start to understand that you need perfect lighting for this and how many other things is it going to mistake?? if you ask me, it's doomed from inception. They are shooting too high!

Ps3 has an actual tech demo on the other hand that is similar to the way the Wii works, but uses the camera to back up the data.. which makes it far more accurate.. to me the wii has had a lot of issues with some movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th8_zKa0DKk

THIS.. is real It's operational.. *NOW*

oh and just incase someone comes along with this supposed "real" demo of natal working.. here's a guy invited to the behind the scenes at E3 talking about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1IxkDR03t8

[PadTheMad]

Do I sense a little scepticism there cows? Granted I'd take it with a pinch of salt, but where did you hear / read this thing about it only reconising light-skinned people and working in near-perfect lighting? I thought the thing had IR projector and some other magic gubbins that allowed it to see in almost any ambient lighting conditions?

Smoke and mirrors are a given part of any sort of tech demo, especially at trade shows - devs have an unfinished, and possibly buggy, product that they want to garner as much publicity for so they stick to a strict routine that they know works. They have to show it off in the best possible light otherwise noone would take much notice. I'm not saying it's good practice to dupe people into believing a non-working product is real, but it's a gamble that devs must be willing to take - providing the end product does what it was shown to do when it was first demoed, then what harm has it done? If it doesn't? Then the devs will have paid the ultimate price - lost faith from their audience.

And that YouTube video? There's always the critics that lay the hate on early just so they can get the chance to say 'I called it first!'

[Gambit37]

I did say in my earlier post that it's clear the Xbox solution is a few years off full realisation. The Milo demo may have been fake, but the other stuff was genuine. Too many people have tried it to say otherwise.

As for "racist" -- come on, that's simply a problem they still need solve, that of low contrast.

Anyway, I'm tired of being cynical about things. It was nice to accept it "as is", even if it's not ready yet. The PS3 solution looks impressive but it's still using controllers, Natal tries to remove that barrier.

[cowsmanaut]

Ok, Natal is not really racist, but that's how others like to spin it. The problem is not that of contrast, but rather the type light they are using to pick up people's skin. those with more melanin appear to absorb more of it making it harder to detect. Someone pointed out that they would need to vary the range of light they are using to help solve this issue but I don't know if that will decrease accuracy or not.

I still say it's over ambitious and I have no problem using a controler like that on the wii. Let's take a racing game for example. Most people buy racing wheels to have the ability to focus on turning it. Mario Kart for wii comes with one. why? because it's nice to have a wheel in your hand.. and they know this. Many of us prefer force feedback wheels because then we can actually feel the pull of the road and bumps with other cars, it's more emersive that way. Plain and simple. It's not the type of game that you need to play sans controler.. it won't make the experience better.

Next, first person shooters. What kind of gesture do you use for changing guns vs throwing grenades vs opening your map vs etc.. How does natal know you are walking forwards or backwards or turning? Even the wii which has this ability to work via motion, opted in the end to have this nunchuck with a mini joystick on it and a few extra buttons. In order to get to these unique activities they have to come up with easy to recognize motions for natal. or have a variety of verbal commands. The problem with odd motions is that with them being untatural you can hurt yourself playing the game, or worse... you begin to encorporate these movements into daily life. My dad got a head tracker for his flight sims, it allowed him to turn his head and the pilot would turn his head too to look out the window.. this frequent head turning became repetative stress on his neck, and actually would have him looking out the side window accidentally.. eventually he just shut it off. Hell, they have a brain control system for computers already. It can tell things like emotional state, movement of various facial muscles. and you can use these to activate things inside the games. No more need for controlers there, but there we go.. basically they make suggestions like opening and closing your mouth to walk.. flicking your eyebrows to change weapons and squinting to look through a scope. out of those, only the scope seems natural to me.

My point, you need controlers. in the end when you want precision, you need something in your hands. You want to swing your sword, aim your gun, drive your car. You want something in your hand... just so it feels right.

so even beyond the fact that they are hiring actors to pretend this thing is awesome and pulling the smoke and mirrors for demos.. which by the way, PS3 demo did not need to do, and not only that, there were no actual errors in their display. Only issue they had was when buddy tried to hold his bow "gangsta" style..

[Gambit37]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying controllers are bad, and clearly the PS3s sex-wand has lots of potential. I'm just intrigued and excited about the possibility of controller-less play (where appropriate.) Of course, most games need some form of controller, but for those that could be played without one, I'm happy to wait and see if Natal really can deliver a decent experience.

[cowsmanaut]

indeed, not all need them, but I'm deeply concerned about the concept presented of a karate game. Injury is very likley.. in fact even with the limited movement needed for the wii alone, look how many people injured themselves and their surroundings... and not all just by throwing the controller accidentally. Someone's going to stupidly kick their TV, or table, or cat, or family member in the "insert item here".. but hey, just like the wii.. get's them off their bums right?

as for the sex wand.. I thought it looked rather like some odd glowing microphone unlike count duku's dildo saber..

[Gambit37]

Dildo sabre? That's a whole other Star wars that I must have missed....!

[cowsmanaut]

yes, some brilliant souls of the TV world took the saber designs from the newwer starwars movies and discovered count duku's saber looked exactly like his wifes "Personal massager" aka dildo..
http://www.foundation3d.com/gallery/dat ... aber01.jpg
I think it was a different variation on this design.. I saw.. but there it is..