[Custom dungeon] Upside Down [RTC] [Adamski]

[glecko]

Thanks very much for the files. I am nearly done with tower 3.3 much to my dismay. I could play this game forever. Huge!
how many people have finished 3.3?

[Adamski]

Last U.D. version is the 2.0, but I'm not sure it works fine on a slow computer. There is an area where the game becomes very slow (not on my desktop computer) in spite of a lot of optimisations. I would like to test again U.D. on the only computer I have at the moment, a weak netbook.
The game is really strange and difficult, I created also a miniguide in pdf (I removed the link).

[money]

Hey Adamski, great to see you back - if you can help me with the saved game i have it would be appreciated

[Adamski]

Definitely money. I sent you a pm with my email address and the miniguide link.

[glecko]

Hi, I am almost finished with tower. I am interested in the pdf guide. I still need a little help to complete tower. Great to have you back

[lbk]

If we did not get a chance to download the previous version before the link was removed, will the new version be made available soon?

[Mac Addict]

HEY! I finally got RTC up and running on my mac through VirtualBox (Windows 7). The first custom dungeon I grabbed was Upside-Down and I'm already addicted again. To the writer of this game - please don't feel like making this was wasted time! I love it and any spare moments I have are spent playing it.

I disagree with Sofia - there was plenty of time to understand the flipping spell and there are a few puzzles that help you learn how to use it. I think it's a great concept and it reminds me a little bit of a game called "Shift" on the web.

I'm not stuck per say at the pit with four pressure plates and the double spikes, but I just have to think about how to get through this puzzle. I understand what's required, but I might actually have to pull out pen and paper to plan my route here! The only other time I can recall doing that was the first time I played CSB on the amiga and this brings back so many good memories.

Thank you for devoting time on something like this. You're giving me hours of enjoyment!

Quick question though - I've been seeing talk about another incomplete dungeon of yours... Does this mean Upside-Down is not a complete dungeon either? That would be disappointing. I'd hate to travel deep into a game and then find it abruptly ends. I'm crossing my fingers here!

[Adamski]

Hi Mac Addict,
thank you for your words. Upside-Down is a complete dungeon. It is little but has a final boss and an ending. It is the first of 4 minidungeons and its story is linked with "Tower of Champions" and "The Quest of the Nine Worlds" (provisional title), the latter the real ending of the saga.
You wrote about "Shift". I know this game because I downloaded it for my iphone (it's a free game) few days ago. I agree, it's quite similar to U-D

To lbk:
this is the link of the game (UD 2.0) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VJKG6UC2
and the guidebook (maps and hints) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RRYOXXBJ
I must inform that U-D may have some problems in an area called "path of the moon", the game could work slowly.

Thank you again for playing. Remember, a feedback (either positive or negative) is really important for my future games.

[Mac Addict]

Okay, I'm a bit further today. I got to the Inn of the Red Boar and couldn't find a way in, so I decided to descend into one of the pits and ended up in an area with many pits and several areas branching off from there. It's getting a bit difficult now since there's no hint as to which way/branch to proceed to. Maybe it doesn't matter? The only one I could solve was the "Way of the World", but I don't know what to do in the area after that. I turned back and was able to access the dry fountain, but don't know how to make the water flow I think Beowulf got this far as well. Any hints as to proceed? This is definitely a head scratcher. It would be nice to have some indication in the dungeon that I'm going the right way or to at least let me know that this area with the pits is an important junction that I'll be coming back to frequently (kind of like the junction of ways in CSB).

[Adamski]

Yes, the area of the pits is the main junction. I suggest to explore the path of the moon before "the world" and forget the fountain: there is another way to quench your thirst. Use the guide if you are stuck, with its maps and the hints you should dispell any doubts.
A hint for the Inn:

Spoiler

solve the puzzle of the shop (it is just after the stairs in front of the starting area)

[Mac Addict]

Hah ha, got a bit further yesterday. I successfully navigated the "moon" area and acquired the moon card. I keep wondering what these cards are going to be used for in the end. Probably some horrible puzzle at the end of the game. I then managed to change my clothes at the "shop". That was a bit of a keyboard-mouse challenge that took a few tries. And then I finally got into the Red Boar Inn and somehow survived the "brawl". Can't play tonight but will get on it sometime next week!

PS: The floor/ceiling spikes are a really nasty new game mechanic... very creative!

[Zyx]

I played the dungeon at last.

Some comments as a designer: It's a very innovative concept. The dungeon is almost purely based on riddles which may pose a problem of rhythm for some players. I think more in-game hints or opportunities to discover the mechanisms would enhance the game, also. For example, the trick to pass the screamer room is a nice surprise, but answers to riddles should feel like they were guessable, so the player would feel more implicated.
The mechanics are working good, though it's a little hard to understand why east and "ouest" are swapped. Sometimes minor wall decorations disappear during the inversion. Also, you should find a way to indicate that some doors will only open with a certain gravity, it feels arbitrary otherwise.

As a player:
I have found dozen of stars and arrows, I wonder what for?
I have played without being blocked until the two-bladed charriot. I have no idea of the

Spoiler

sign with the left hand

. I can activate the

Spoiler

left joker face

but then nothing. I have the

Spoiler

hierophant sign

but it doesn't seem helpful.
In the boiler room I used the

Spoiler

sun opal

quite randomly, moving freneticly in and out, inverting gravity, and solved the riddle without understanding it!
I'm currently investigating the path of the world...
I found the s

Spoiler

ecret number without opening the door

, I don't see how to use this knowledge now.
So far it's a very pleasant dungeon. I like the storyline, the tarot theme.

[Zyx]

I finished the path of the world, except for the ultimate knowledge and I passed the chariot.

[Mac Addict]

I've been wondering about the whole east/west swapping thing too Zyx. But perhaps this relates to something bigger in the dungeon later on. I recall seeing a scroll in the boiler room that said something about this, but I haven't figured out the meaning yet. Sounds like you're much further than me.

[Zyx]

It seems voluntary Mac Addict, there's a scroll right before the gravity sphere expliciting the E/W swapping.
I'm at the path of the Hierophant now and I don't see much to do. I'll try harder this week end.

[Adamski]

Zyx, thanks for your comments, all the suggestion are precious. In fact this game is still unripe, it needs a lot of feedbacks and a general "retouch".

I think more in-game hints or opportunities to discover the mechanisms would enhance the game

that's difficult, adding new areas to the dungeon or changing the design is a problem due to its structure...I'll try

answers to riddles should feel like they were guessable, so the player would feel more implicated

what do you mean? are the anwers too evident?

Sometimes minor wall decorations disappear during the inversion

where did it happen? do you remember the exact place?

you should find a way to indicate that some doors will only open with a certain gravity, it feels arbitrary otherwise

maybe those doors should be different from the others...

I have found dozen of stars and arrows, I wonder what for?

they are weapons and...

Spoiler

you will meet a riddle later on...

In the boiler room I used

Spoiler

the sun opal

quite randomly, moving freneticly in and out, inverting gravity, and solved the riddle without understanding it!

the secret is the east/west swapping (see below) and the angle of the teleport

I found the secret number

Spoiler

without opening the door

correct,

Spoiler

but this number has a property

@Mac Addict

I've been wondering about the whole east/west swapping thing too Zyx

That's not voluntary as Zyx thinks. The cause is the particular design of the invert-gravity mechanism, it's a secondary consequence. I took advantage of this to build a couple of puzzles. At the end of the game you will able to understand the real mechanics that rule this crazy mansion.

[lbk]

I am still getting used to the flipping design of the dungeon. I agree with Zyx's suggestion that the doors could be marked if they flip with a certain type of gravity. It took me a while to figure some of those out.

(edit) To avoid a double post, I am at this part with red and blue pads where there are numbers on the wall. I was able to match the 10 and open a door, but for the life of me I cannot get the door with 4 or 21 to open. Am I doing something wrong?

[Mac Addict]

Arrgh, still haven't had a chance to play this week, but the game has been on my mind all the time! I really want to play, but I should probably finish that thesis I've been working on for five years first.

I'm curious, what's all this back story for the "Nine Worlds"? Have you created an entire world of dungeons to explore? This would be most excellent. Maybe I should try this tower of champions dungeon, but I hate leaving one dungeon incomplete before moving onto another.

[Adamski]

@lbk: try to reset the numbers with the black pad
@Mac Addict: the Quest of the Nine Worlds is the conclusion of ToC. The project consists of 6 dungeons, everyone tells a different part of the story
Version 2.1 of UD is ready! It adds 2 training areas to understand the gravity spell use and fixes many little and big problems, mainly in the "World area" (you can finish the game skipping a huge part of the dungeon). The new version needs a little test before being released.

[Zyx]

answers to riddles should feel like they were guessable, so the player would feel more implicated

what do you mean? are the anwers too evident?

On the contrary, sometimes they are unpredictable. For example, the player should encounter a sample of distinct species to understand that

Spoiler

not all monsters react the same way to the gravity, thus giving a hint about the screamer room.

The player should try to think instead of trying at random just to see if something happens.
Also, I just read the manual you've done (the parts I already solved): it's a great effort, but many hints should be provided in-game, though maybe not in an immediate way. I mean that if you can't solve a puzzle, go elsewhere, and you'll end up finding hints about it.
Also, in the big mirror room near the end of the world, I killed the beholders and then explored the room. I think it's a natural way of thinking (well, rather not thinking). I just discovered in the manual that something was doable with them and the mirror. Maybe they should appear later, after the mirror is investigated, for example, and the player understands that he should not simply kill the beholders.

In the fountain room:
- the scrolls are misleading because you don't know whether to take them litterally or not. So I came back when

Spoiler

I got a coin, when I got anything related to a king, to no avail. It would be nice if an alcove opened when you insert a coin, with a small reward, dissipating any doubts without frustration

. The stairs from this room kill you after a fraction of second, it is not clear that

Spoiler

you can survive.

Sometimes minor wall decorations disappear during the inversion

where did it happen? do you remember the exact place?

The only one I remember is a wall grate at the magician level.

I found the secret number

Spoiler

without opening the door

correct,

Spoiler

but this number has a property

I solved it but there was a misleading hint in the scroll about going back if ever the number was found.

Oh, I forgot to say, it would be nice if the starting character had more health, instadeaths against monsters are too frequent.

[Mac Addict]

Well I had a chance to play again today...
I went back to the pit where two saw blades come at you. Finally figured out how to deal with that. Next I went to the hierophant's palace. I had to do a wikipedia search to solve the entrance riddle, and that was very satisfying. Then I solved the wheel of fortune puzzle, but I have no idea what to do with the booty. I then went to the "confessor" and dealt with him by running around. He dropped an iron key, and so now I have two iron keys to enter the path of the devil... But to get back to the path of the devil, I have to face another confessor at the beginning of the path of penance! Is this a bug, is he supposed to be there? I can't get out of this area now! And the scrolls said I should go back to the path of the hierophant and walk a special way.

Also, back at the beginning of this section of the dungeon, I looked around a few times in the "hall of justice". I don't know what to do here, and only when I set all three free did I get a message saying I was wise or just (I can't remember which it was). I saved before this point because I wasn't sure if I had done the right thing, so I'll have to go back to it later. I noticed inverting gravity made some bad guys appear in the hall of justice who promptly killed me as well. This area is confusing. How do I know to kill or spare the prisoner's lives?

[Mac Addict]

Also, just wanted to say that the music choice for UpsideDown is very appropriate. That tune sticks in your mind and stays with you for a long time. Fits the mood of the dungeon very well. Normally I turn off the music, but not in this one.

[Mac Addict]

No hints? I guess I should finally download the hint manual. I'd play test version 2.1 for you if you like.

I came up with one more suggestion. There is one level of the dungeon that doesn't have the purple walls like the other two. It's more bluish with panels. I have noticed that because of the way the wallset appears from one or two steps away, it's sometimes difficult to see that there's a turn around the corner until you get right up next to it. This is a minor thing, but something that has to watched for, otherwise you can end up missing an open area that could be explored.

I'm being ultra-critical so that you can fine-tune this dungeon into the best that it can be.

Question: Will there be mini-dungeons like this for the other guild masters, each with their own unique theme?

[Mac Addict]

Another comment: There are many different colored floor pads in UpsideDown. Occasionally there are wall messages or scrolls that refer to "black" pads, but I think you actually mean "blank" pads, the colourless, grey pads from normal DM. Whenever I keep reading black I'm thinking I should find somewhere a black coloured pad and never do because you're referring to the grey pad right next to me.

[Adamski]

@Mac Addict

There is one level of the dungeon that doesn't have the purple walls like the other two. It's more bluish with panels.

The final level, when you exit out of the mansion? I don't understand where you are. Maybe you have finished the game...

Will there be mini-dungeons like this for the other guild masters, each with their own unique theme?

Yes, there will be other 3 mini dungeons with different and strange mechanics. Next one will be "Underworld Dreams" with Elektra.

there are wall messages or scrolls that refer to "black" pads, but I think you actually mean "blank" pads

On my monitor they look dark grey, almost black.

that the music choice for UpsideDown is very appropriate

The music comes from Lupin III, Castle of Cagliostro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm56VcqsHoU

A couple of hints: in the Hall of Justice you should kill or set free the prisoners according to your sense of justice. Read the scrolls with their crimes and make a choice. The other confessor is not a bug, but maybe I will remove it from the new version.

@ Zyx

it would be nice if the starting character had more health, instadeaths against monsters are too frequent.

Insta-deaths are only against the minions, however I will increase the health.

I killed the beholders and then explored the room [...]. I just discovered in the manual that something was doable with them and the mirror.

The manual doesn't say anithing about beholders and mirror, the mirror is only a wall decoration.
I will delay the 2.1 version, there are too many corrections to do. I must add new hints, fix minor problems and test the game.

[Mac Addict]

It might be a big job, but perhaps you should just change "black pads" to "grey pads" in all scrolls and wall messages then.

[Mac Addict]

I have not finished the game. I was referring to the wallset you find on the same level that has the "shop". Perhaps I can do a screen capture sometime to show you what I mean.

[beowuuf]

I had to say it, but grey pads are all the plain pads used everywhere else!

The black pads were clear to me, for what it's worth.

[raixel]

Well Adamski has succeeded in breakin my brain(again) in a way I didn't think would be possible using the RTC engine. I love this game! The tarot theme is really cool.

You said there's a PDF available? I can't find the link...
I'd be interested in any backstory that has been cooked up, as this world is one of the most rich out there.

[Zyx]

I killed the beholders and then explored the room [...]. I just discovered in the manual that something was doable with them and the mirror.

The manual doesn't say anithing about beholders and mirror, the mirror is only a wall decoration.

Ah, the screenshot showed a beholder with a 90 degrees rotation, I thought it was due to the mirror.