My thoughts about CSB, and a question about a possible bug

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Kadan
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My thoughts about CSB, and a question about a possible bug

Post by Kadan »

Warning: this is a long post, sorry :wink: .
It also has a lot of spoilers.

This was my first time playing CSB, and I wanted to get through it with as few hints as possible, so I didn't use any maps. I had heard that CSB's map design is very chaotic, but I didn't find it that bad. It was really fun to learn how to navigate through all those places. He who designed the dungeon must have been a genius. To make pit transportation work through all those levels must be hard.

I played the Amiga version (wonderful stereo sound, hearing a dragon moving nearby just feels great), and I used the same characters which I played through DM last time: Daroou, Hiss, Tiggy and Woof.

Before I started with the ways, I experimented around trying all the pits and getting familiar with the Supplies for the Quick area and the Junction of the Ways. I guess it's kinda cheating to try things and load the save, but I wanted to understand the place first.

I played the ways in this order: Ku, Neta, Dain and Ros as the last one. I had heard beforehand that you could get some good weapons from Ku, so when I saw it I went there. At first I was surprised at the combat difficulty when compared to DM: Infinite number of monsters spawning very fast, a dragon as a seemingly normal monster in the middle of a dozen worms and such. It felt really intense. My characters were high enough level though, so it didn't matter that I had no idea where to go and could try all the places. Then I got stuck at the KU door in DDD level. I ran the hint oracle, and it told me that the dragon carries the solid key. At first I killed the wrong dragon, the one below the DDD level, and got only steaks. Then I killed the dragon that I met in the beginning of Ku and got the key. Finally finding the corbum felt nice. Then I went up the stairs and explored the place. Because I had saves, I tried the teleporters and found myself at the FulYa pit. I couldn't believe I found the ending place already. After that I had a better view about the layout of the dungeon.

Neta way was fun and easy. The trap which drops you in the middle of a pack of gigglers and then even further down was hilarious! But Dain way was really annoying at first. I couldn't find the key to the Dain door in DDD anywhere. I had to check from the walkthrough. The solution, putting an item to the vorpal blade niche, was something I wouldn't have thought to try out on my own...

Playing the Ros way was fun. When I came to the maze which consisted of illusion walls, pits and dragons I thought "are they joking?". That was the only place where I used the magic map, with the oh gor ros spell that was given earlier. Never really needed a map elsewhere, but that place would have been way too hard without it.

Now I'm coming to the bug I mentioned in the topic. I couldn't find any way to get to the Ros area of DDD, even with clicking the hidden button next to the pit that blocks the way, so I looked from a walkthrough, and it said you need to click with an item on the eye behind the door where a skeleton must be teleported and where you get to the Neta area. However, I already did the Neta path, and the door was now closed again. Teleporting skeletons behind the door didn't open the door anymore, so there was no way to click the eye. I had to resort to editing my save with dmute and opening the door that way. After that I could get forward. Is this really a bug, or is there some other way to get the door open again if you don't know to click the eye when doing the Neta way?

After jumping into pits a hundred times I got the last corbum. Then I went to the FulYa pit using the teleporters and avoiding the demons that way. Satisfying ending.

I don't know if it's good or bad, but it took me 4 days to finish this game. Considering it was my first time and I didn't use any maps, and looked only 2 things up I'm satisfied. I must say that the game was far better than I thought. I expected something maybe as good as DM, but it turned out I liked CSB much more.

I tried to play quite thoroughly, but I still missed a lot of things. I got the complete Dragon armor, but I missed poleyn and greaves of the Ra set. I got the dexhelm, crown of nerra and boots of speed though. I also found 5 keys of B, but I have no idea what they are used for... Also another vorpal blade would have been nice, but I don't know if it even exists.

When I started I thought food and water would be a major issue in this game. I was so wrong. I think I never needed to dring from a waterskin, I always found fountains when needed. And I got 6 waterskins. In the beginning I killed a lot of worms in the starting room to get some food reserve, but it was a complete waste of time. In the end I had 64 dragon steaks, most packed in chests, lying in my storeroom. I never needed to eat even one dragon steak. And I found out that in the Ku path dragon den even when you kill all of the dragons a new one spawns when you go there again, so you'd never run out of steaks. I guess one reason why I needed so little food and water was that I almost never put my characters to sleep.

I guess I'll study CSB maps now, to see what I missed. Later I want to take Tiggy, who I soloed through DM earlier, alone through CSB as well. That should be fun :).
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Ian Clark
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Post by Ian Clark »

Now I'm coming to the bug I mentioned in the topic. I couldn't find any way to get to the Ros area of DDD, even with clicking the hidden button next to the pit that blocks the way, so I looked from a walkthrough, and it said you need to click with an item on the eye behind the door where a skeleton must be teleported and where you get to the Neta area. However, I already did the Neta path, and the door was now closed again. Teleporting skeletons behind the door didn't open the door anymore, so there was no way to click the eye. I had to resort to editing my save with dmute and opening the door that way. After that I could get forward. Is this really a bug, or is there some other way to get the door open again if you don't know to click the eye when doing the Neta way?
You need to teleport a Skeleton behind the door and kill it by throwing daggers/rocks/darts through the door (poison is of very little use), then go and press the switch with an item.
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PaulH
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Post by PaulH »

I am sure the infamous invisible presure pad at 03 (31,23) is invloved...
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Charlatan75
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Post by Charlatan75 »

Hello! :)

Hmmm... I just wanted to say that what you did is very impressive for players like me (^^).
When I first played CSB, I could simply not understand what was happening in the "Junction of the way" : sometimes I met Ant-Men, sometimes not (it was other monsters, or nothing... Argh! Too confusing!!!). I was totally lost after a few steps... It was just too hard for players like me...
Me and my brother had been "lost" for many months in DM, with an indescribable pleasure (!), before we finished this game. I tried CSB a few months after... and I've been disappointed (for the reason given above).
I played CSB again many years after (with maps explaining : "when you stand here you go there...", and it was funny because sometimes I was "standing here" and I was already somewhere I did not want to go! (Arf! I'm probably the most clumpsy player in the world!:) ). But I understood why CSB was "fun" (for those who understood the "Junction of the Way" thing...).
I played it again many many years after (!)... and (of course) I'm still very impressed by players who quickly understand what the "Junction of the way" is! (Am I the only one? :))

Charlatan75
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Toni Y
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Post by Toni Y »

I didn't understand the logic of Junction when I first played CSB. Heck, I still don't remember it by heart. I would have to check with DMute. ;)

But you don't need to understand it. Just accept that it takes you to some part along the way you've chosen. Once you figure that out, you don't really need to know exactly where you'll end up - you can always/most of the time walk to where you need to go.

The Diabolical Demon Director on the other hand... That you need to figure out. But atleast there the cause and effect is reasonably clear, except for Ros.

The teleport skeleton behind door bit described in the first post was one of my favourite parts of CSB. I don't know why.
Toni Ylisirniö
Author of Grave of King Millias, Return of Chaos, and DM2 dungeons.
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Charlatan75
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Post by Charlatan75 »

Hello! :)

Hmmm... Out Of Topic Remark : I once played a "Grave of King Millias" dungeon... and I liked it (your creation?)... (La la la, nobody did hear anything...).^^

Charlatan75
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Paul Stevens
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Post by Paul Stevens »

teleport skeleton behind door bit described in the first post was one of my favourite parts
I'd give that puzzle first place. Fiendishly complex. Nobody
ever figured that out in its entirety without the editor. Whether
or not that wall is there to help contain the skeleton. Whether
or not the lightning bolt would arrive to kill the skeleton.
How does the door get closed again. How to kill the thing if you
are careless and have to come
back a second time after opening the keyed door
and the skeleton won't stand still to be killed. It becomes a
different puzzle. This puzzle gets the Blue Ribbon.
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MonDesIrSar
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Post by MonDesIrSar »

Ho Champions,
I must confirm to the above.
One of the trickiest passages ever in a rpg, made my synapses sparkle on the first visit.
And after all it´s the most addictive, ingenious and innovative dungeon I know.

Been through the game again for the 5th or 6th time... still discovering new (cross)sections..
But this time I´ve seen and done it all, even the seemingly useless topaz key and keys of b revealed their function to me. :twisted:


Be greeted as I check my W.o.G.
TotalDarkness
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Simon
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Post by Simon »

I didn't think that puzzle was very difficult, it only took a few minutes to solve. First of all I experimented a bit and noticed the lots of respawning skeletons, and having done the mummy room which is similar, I guessed I'd have to port one through. So I teleported one through, nothing happened. I teleported about 5 more through, nothing happened. I explored the area a bit, and found a crack in the wall which gave me some stones. It then became obvious what to do :)
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Paul Stevens
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Post by Paul Stevens »

It then became obvious what to do
You still have something to learn. :wink:
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Simon
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Post by Simon »

What?
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PaulH
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Post by PaulH »

If you consider passing through as completion then you have succeeded. But PaulS is saying that there is further possibilties to this puzzle. depending.
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MonDesIrSar
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Post by MonDesIrSar »

PaulH wrote:PaulS is saying that there is further possibilties to this puzzle. depending.
If this is true, I too have something to learn... Completion means seeing and doing it all to me.

Heading back to the DDD,
TotalDarkness
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