interesting facts about CSB

[rain]

While still working on my CSB "physics" editor (more of ingame variables), i stumbled on another interesting fact, about the diamond edge...


First of all, we all know the diamond edge is good for killing the big stone guys, the reason it does that is because it reduces the enemies armor by 25%. Unless you can take advantage of this (having a base hit value of about 200), it really doesn't prove useful (which is why berzerking does much more damage then the diamond edge's cleave).

What you don't know is that all 3 attack options of the diamond (stab, chop, and cleave) do exactly the same damage! The only difference is the time it takes to recover. Therefor chopping and/or cleaving with the diamond edge is completely useless.

Try testing it yourself, and you'll find it to be true. This shocks me to the point of being dumbstruck, because it makes absolutely no sense to make 3 different attacks all do the same damage (and the easy ones being quicker)

Anyway: This full fledged editor should be completed soon and i'll let you find all these interesting quirks about CSB =]

-rain

[sucinum]

i think thats a bug...
but thx for your work, its nice what you recover :-)
am i right that there is the base damage of any weapon in the files, maybe also the armor class of any armor piece?
could you post it then? ;-)

[Wil]

Rain, Very interesting, your work is what I've been looking for since a long time ago: what are the real stats of various weapons.
Do you think what you say of CSB is true in DM too?
But I don't really understand: do you mean you shouldn't use the DE against monsters with low HP, or low AC?
Is it a ninja or warrior weapon?

[Lunever]

When you use "stab" it is a very good ninja weapon, because it adds to your ninja experience and does considerable damage if you consider the short recovery time: You can attack in a very high frequency, so the little damage of the individual attacks adds up quickly to some serious damage, plus, as Rain says, it seems to reduce 25% of an enemies armor protection (I don't say AC because that is an (A)D&D value that, reducing the chance to get hit, works different from DM's protection, which, I suppose, reduces the amount of damage suffered), so it's the perfect weapon against monsters with a high armor protection.
Theoretically you can use it also as an fighter weapon, gaining fighter experience by using "chop" and "cleave", but to do so would be inefficient, since it seems to do the same small amount of damage as stab, but has a longer recovery time, so if you want to train a fighter, you better use an Inquisitor/Dragon Fang or Hardcleave/Executioner.
The only weapon "stats" I ever saw are those in the Adventurer's Handbook available at this site, I never saw any armor values for DM.
But I would be quite interested in them. Rain, are you able to find them?

[rain`]

Wil: As for the Diamond edge being the same in both DM and CSB, i cannot guarantee that. Theres a lot of very small differences between the 2 games (i.e, the power of the fireballs shot by dragons), and i can only guess since i haven't looked into the DM graphics.dat RAW files at all.

But as for when to use the diamond edge and when not to, i've discovered that 99 times out of a 100 its better to use the diamond edge's stab over any other option or weapon. Try it and find out, it works great on knights!

Berzerk is an attack thats a little bit "worse" then stab because of its long delay in attacks, but depending on your style, berzerk may be better in the current situation (hit and run). Personally i prefer toe to toe, so the DE is more of my taste.

[Wil]

In DM, I don't remember the DE having great effect against Knights or Stone Guys. Only 'berzerk' weapons and, in some measure 'thrust' weapons (Delta, Rapier), do the trick.

The edge is great against all the rest (rats, spiders, scorpios, worms...), also, I think, the Stone Things.

[PaulH]

The Diamond Edge does have a good effect against the Knights and Golems but only when you have attained a certain level of strength and vitality.

[Lunever]

What do you need vitality for?

[PaulH]

Vitality affects your health points... I actually meant to say dexterity.

[Wil]

PaulH, you're absolutely right, the Diamond Edge can be very efficient against knights too, I could see it in an alternate dungeon based on DM (so it is both DM & CSB).

[erlon]

I think that the best weapon against knights is mass ku flask. I ever made almost 200 damages on that monster in that way. For the diamond edge I found so sad that all three methodes make same damages :(

[Wil]

... but after still more experience in alternative dungeons, it seems that berserk weapons, especially the hardcleave are the best against (some tough) knights and golems. At really advanced levels (master+).

At this point, I would add that the 'chop' option of the axe is more damaging than the 'chop' option of the falchion.

[PaulH]

Also you can use the 'bezerk' option of the Inquisitor with less exp points than the Hardcleave

[Lunever]

Obviously the programmers liked axes a lot. But in real fighting I find swords much more handy than axes.

[Zyx]

Do you make real fighting?

I have several friends who belong to an association about recreating fights of the XII century (with the real techniques). One one them has been working as their smith for over two years now, he forged some cool axes and swords.

[Zyx]

I just asked him about axes vs swords.
It is very difficult to parry with an axe because of its weight and lack of useful surface to make a parry.
But it is nearly impossible for a sword to parry the blow of an axe:
the axe has much more weight and make much more damage. An axe would even destroy a buckler and break the arm holding it! The parrying sword could break too.
So, it is hard to compare these two weapons. Actually, my friend just gave me an axe and he took a sword. We made some melee movements. Then we swapped weapons... I felt much more comfortable with the big axe about my chances!
Also, int the XII century, swords were more a symbol for a lord. Soldiers would rather use axes. English troops and vikings wear axes.

Just quoting my friend. I claim no knowledge about this question!

[beowuuf]

lol, funny you should say that, a fantasy clip i wrote (with fighting) had one character looking for an axe over their sword as a weapon of damage...just a flight of fancy and it sounded right
Glad it was...still need to check small details like that out in the distant fture if it condenses into a novel or three : )

[Zyx]

If you need a (foreign) beta-reader, I'm here!

[beowuuf]

early days, early days... : )